Word final *n in indo-european n-stems

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If word-final *-n had disappeared at the PIE stage, how would Hittite laman "name" have ever arisen?

Oh wait, sorry. I get it now. Your rule would only affect instances of *n after long vowels, not short ones. Whoops. I'll have to try harder now to destroy your theory :-)

Okay, I guess I still have to wonder how you deal with *ḱwōn "dog (nom.sg.)." And then how do you deal with h₂eḱmōn "stone"? Ultimately, I'd think that regardless of anything, there exists a stage of IE or Pre-IE where *n would be present in the nominative singular since it's clearly present elsewhere. Denasalization is a very common sound change and can easily occur in two different branches seperately.

As for the 1ps personal ending, I've come to accept that *-ō < *-oh₂) is borrowed from the perfective endings via the old subjunctive (which later turned into the famous thematic present as per Jasanoff's views). I mentioned how this might have come about semantically on my blog: Thoughts on the early Indo-European subjunctive 1ps ending.

As for the 1ps personal ending, I've come to accept that *-ō < *-oh₂) is borrowed from the perfective endings via the old subjunctive (which later turned into the famous thematic present as per Jasanoff's views). I mentioned how this might have come about semantically on my blog: Thoughts on the early Indo-European subjunctive 1ps ending.


I absolutely agree. But I thought it'd be entertaining to show some of those Sandhi denasalisation theories that you run into every now and then. There's some elegance to the solution, it's sadly just not the ideal solution ;)


As for *ḱuōn, In the Germanic branch this is of course not relevant, we find hunds in Gothic. Which is a derivation of one of the other root vocalism + d suffix.

In Sanskrit the nominative singular is exactly as you'd expect: śvā श्वा
And Latin has canis, which is an i-stem derrivation from an oblique case stem I guess (Really should teach myself Latin at some point).

Of course at some point, the *n must have been there.
*ḱuon-s > *ḱuōn > *ḱuō.

Whether that last shift occured in the seperate branches or very Late Indo-European is indeed hard to tell. Luckily for the greater scheme of things, it's not one of the more important issues. For reconstructions further back than late IE, we're going to need the *on-s < *ána-sa reconstruction anyway, with or without that n being there in a later stage.


Well, rather than prove you wrong, it's looking like I've learned something new. Drats! Hahaha. I guess even in Hittite, we have hara-s "eagle" in the nominative without "n" while it shows up in oblique cases (i.e. haran-as "of the eagle"). If I'm correct in presuming that the nominative ending -s was added on later in Hittite, then it appears that even Anatolian shows the dropping *-n in these n-stems. Egad. Of course, this doesn't affect my ideas on Pre-IE but my mind is now blown. Thank you for that :)
hah! Isn't that an odd twist.

But, I'm fairly confident that hara-s simply represents an Anatolian loss of *n. At least I always assumed that was what was going on, seeing as the acc. pl. has -us, rather than -uns or something like that.

But the u found in the acc. pl. is already problematic, so maybe it's not the best of examples. Most other examples of this 'law' PIE *Vns > Hitt. VS are more difficult to find. But Kloekhorst mentions one in his fantastic Hittite Etymological Dictionary:

*ḱuéns-ti > Hitt. /kuáStˢi/, ku-ṷa-aš-zi ‘he kisses’

Which I think is pretty convincing.
But if PIE *Vns became Hittite Vs, then you're contradicting yourself by suggesting that the word-final *-n# was indeed present in these n-stems at the PIE stage, no?
Hah, depends on how you define the PIE stage.
I'd say that the word final *n may have disappeared before all languages split up, except for Hittite, which split up quite a bit earlier. There's been enough time afterwards for the rest of the PIE languages to have common developments to which Hittite was excluded.

After all, after Hittite split of, PIE had the chance to completely reconfigure its verbal system, so why not get rid of a word final n?

Realise that Szemerenyi's law had not yet taken effect in Hittite. Think of the Hittite *nt-stems that end in -an-za /ant-s/ for example.

There's no contradiction then right? When you place the disappearance of word final *n in between the split of Hittite and the rest of PIE, and the split of all other IE languages.

Phoenix: "I'd say that the word final *n may have disappeared before all languages split up, except for Hittite, which split up quite a bit earlier."

Alright, but nowdays, I can't imagine how it's worth continuing the outdated definition of "Proto-Indo-European" as default which excludes Anatolian. This is why I like to relegate post-Anatolian Indo-European to the terms IE-2 or Post-IE. to make it clear that this is *not* Proto-Indo-European proper. So you're speaking of a "Post-IE stage" in my books. Let's move on...

Phoenix: "Realise that Szemerenyi's law had not yet taken effect in Hittite. Think of the Hittite *nt-stems that end in -an-za /ant-s/ for example."

I assume that your definition of Szemerenyi's law is radically different from my revisions. To me, Szemerenyi's Law refers in part to vocalic lengthening caused by Syncope and its Clipping exception at the end of the Mid IE period. Then there's the later matter of the disappearance of nominative *-s after resonants which Jens Rasmussen believes involved a former word-final phoneme *z (and I now am compelled to agree with that). However, *nt-stems have nothing to do with these two Pre-IE rules and the *-s should indeed have survived into PIE. So you must be referring to yet a third phenomenon which occurred much later in *Post-IE* (involving the lenition of word-final dental-plus-sibilant clusters?). Are you by chance conflating seperate events in this way?

If you're trying to suggest that the simplification of *-Vns > *-V:n was concurrent with the change of *-Vnts > *-V:ns in PIE/Post-IE, my objection would be that all instances of *-V:R already existed in PIE before Anatolian had seperated (see Fortson, Indo-European Language And Culture (2004), p.112 concerning kissaras "hand (nom.sg.)").

Now, it's your turn. Tag! You're it! :)

r stems seem to've just ended in either ár-s or ér-s, where that *s was probably added later. as we know from the word kessar/kissaras /keS-r/ /keS-r-S/.

I take it your reasoning is: Since kessar proves that r-stams used to have no *-s suffix the *s must have disappeared, and have been added later. But that would mean all proof of phonetic length would've been lost.

From that point onwards, you could say all nominative /S/ that were added after resonants are later analogies.

Argh, you've done it again, that all works pretty well. And it is indeed true that keS-r is the older form.

It would imply that word final long vowels *a: and *e: did shorten back to *a and *e though.

I still see a little problem though. The common *ḗr < *ér-s ending is actually not found in hittite at all. Like keS-r's form seems to come from simply *r. Saying that this lengthening and drop of *s must have taken place from that example only seems rather difficult.

Hmm, I feel that I'm having some trouble explaining what I mean. Maybe I should start a new blog post again. I see your point, I'm not completely sure whether I agree with it yet. Stay on the lookout for another blogpost on this subject ;-)

Phoenix: "I still see a little problem though. The common *ḗr < *ér-s ending is actually not found in hittite at all."

Perhaps, but how then do you explain collective neuters like *wédōr "waters" and *kʷetwṓr "four (inan.)" considering that Szemerenyi's Law (i.e. the combined disappearance and lengthening of a word-final phoneme) seems to also affect the expected word-final collective morpheme *-h₂ in these cases? The plot thickens...

Oh, and before I forget, also explain why Hittite kir "heart" looks like it's from *ḱḗr < Pre-IE *ḱerd, thereby showing more Szemerenyi-esque loss of final consonant and concommitant lengthening even in Anatolian.

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