The Unification of Genitives!

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Phoenix: "Let me just stress that everything I present here are my theories, I'm not doing this to get respect and honour, but just so people won't think badly of Glen Gordon's awesome work if I make some terrible mistake in my reasoning."

Cool! This is exactly what I want to happen. I want rational people to discuss the little details of Pre-IE like this instead of just loose ideas. We shouldn't fear being "thought of badly" by what are in effect angry sociopaths who need therapy because who honestly in their right mind would actually look down on self-expression, constructivity, rationality and open information-sharing? The "Zero is hero" mentality may be good enough for the common people but I have no interest in being common and the world is far too jaded for me to take great interest in its petty politics.

Phoenix: "With this the two forms of the genitive have finally been unified into a single suffix *-so. So obvious that I'm astounded it hadn't occurred to me sooner. Besides that it's also so obvious I'm sure it has occurred to other people too."

My account of all this is slightly different. I suggest that the pronominal genitive ending *-so (which you write with added thematic vowel *-e-so or *-o-so) is just a variant of earlier *-syo, from mid Late IE *-s-ya, which in turn is comprised of the genitive plus an ancient, endingless oblique case form, *ya, of the relative pronoun *ya 'which, who, that' (> PIE *yo-s). I've explained before that this served as a handy semantic circumlocution (i.e. saying "of that which is of X" instead of directly "of X") in cases where the animate nominative in *-s of thematic nouns and the inherited genitive in *-(o)s would have otherwise merged without the intervention of the pronominal attachment.

We can all see this when we ponder on what the repercussions would be if the genitive of *ékwo-s were **ékwo-s (hence identical with the nominative) instead of *ékwo-syo. Note that since thematic nouns are so common and since accent on these stems is fixed to the initial (i.e. acrostatic), there would have simply been no means whatsoever to distinguish between the nominative and genitive forms without some added cue like agglutinated *-yo.

I date the event of Syncope to an entire thousand years before Proto-Indo-European and use this event as a marker for the beginning of the "Late IE period". There are many many many more changes that I observe between Syncope and PIE proper (changes in ablaut rules and word formation, Acrostatic Regularization, Schwa Diffusion and Merger, Vowel Shift, etc.), and so a millenium seems to me to be a reasonable amount of time to allow these other changes to transpire.

Phoenix: "The *-s ending in the nominative is obviously highly curious if it is indeed from the stem *so-/to- because you'd be saying *so=so 'this-this' in Pre-Indo-European."

My view is that *so was originally an undeclined deictic that was incorporated into the *to- paradigm at a very late date in Late IE, long after Syncope. If you want proof, try the 3ps *-t 'he, she, it' which is most sensibly from *ta (> *to- 'that') and agglutinated to the pre-existing 3ps form. Yet, for this to have happened semantically, it means that at that time *ta here could not have been anything other than A) a nominative case form, and B) used for animates as well as inanimates equally (since it was used to convey "he", "she" and "it"). In PIE proper, things are quite different: the animate form is *so and the inanimate form is *tod.

Meanwhile, it's important to realize that nominative *-s (from earlier *sa 'the', from whence also comes PIE *so) was always strictly for animate usage, never inanimate. We never see *-s used as an inanimate nominative ending. There's no such thing.

So this gives us a big hint about the original paradigm and usage of *to-. and the paradigm (or lack thereof) and usage of *so. We can deduce then that *to- was once entirely undifferentiated for gender with an endingless nominative form *ta (also used for the locative case). This original nominative form was later replaced by undeclinable *sa, but only in the animate nominative case, while the inanimate nomino-accusative form probably continued to be *ta until it acquired the additional post-Syncope inanimate ending *-d (also from *ta) which was borrowed from other pronouns like *kʷid ~ *kʷod 'what?'.

I just realized that I forgot to mention that I believe that *toso or *tosyo is also a later construct and that original genitive of early Late IE *ta 'that' was simply *tas. The genitive in *-syo was simply taken from the declensional paradigm of thematic nouns and then applied to *to- as if it too were a thematic noun.
The genitive in *-syo was simply taken from the declensional paradigm of thematic nouns and then applied to *to- as if it too were a thematic noun.

Haha, that's very controversial. I'd say almost any other linguist on this planet would say the opposite. From your reconstructed system though, it makes perfect sense.

I still feel a bit sceptical towards the amount of analogical switching around to get the necessary results. But this is hardly accountable as a wrong, rather it leaves me want to look for a more elegant solution. Which I will strive to do.

I've been steering away of reconstructing a realistic pre-indo-european for far too long now. I'm definitely delving into it.

As a small side note: The thing that always irked me about the personal endings -m -s -t was that they felt inverted -m = me -s = so -t = tu :D

Though of coure -t is great for a *to- 'this'. The 2nd person -s still annoys me. What is it doing there? :D Plenty of things to think about.

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